Ken Wilber on Humanity’s SIXTH Known Shift

Listen To Ken:


Ken Wilber

This interview with Ken Wilber is a gift.

For those of you who do not know him, Ken has spent his entire career creating understandable models of human behavior, all with the mission to make greater sense of our human experience.

In the interview, we learn that this is NOT the first major transition humanity has experienced.  As in the Matrix movies, Ken claims we are amid the 6th known great transition!

(*FYI, if you buy the Matrix Trilogy 10th Anniversary DVD’s, they are narrated in part by, you guessed it, Ken Wilber)!

I pushed Ken here to look into the future and foresee what it looks like once we ‘Tip’ into the next phase.  His answers are fascinating.

What I love most about Ken Wilber and his Integral Theory work is that its based on SCIENCE, observation and data.  Ken’s theories, and the work of the entire Integral community, is not based on conjecture.

Please take a moment to check out Ken’s work by clicking here.

More About Ken Wilber

Ken is a world-renowned author who has written about mysticism, philosophy, ecology, and developmental psychology. His work formulates what he calls Integral Theory.  In 1998, he founded the Integral Institute, for teaching and applications of Integral theory.

Wilber is credited with popularizing, if not inventing, the field of Integral Thought, broadening the appeal of a “perennial philosophy” to a much wider audience. Cultural figures as varied as Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Deepak Chopra, and musician Billy Corgan have mentioned his influence.


*The Tipping Point intro was created by Emmy award-winning composer/producer Gary Malkin, founder of Wisdom of the World -  media for a meaningful life.  Please click here to see more of Gary’s work.

  • david

    really disappointing interview

  • Miguel Vasconcelos

    Very interesting conversation of the different stages of evolution of mankind throughout history and the one humanity is going on right now, shares a lot of light about the process. I wish Ken could share again the name of the book they have writen that he talks about by the end of this conversation that describes the different ways that one can take to speed up the personal process

  • jonT

    I think it is worth saying that this discussion is substantially the same as Spiral Dynamics: see

  • Todd Goldfarb

    I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy David. My goal with interviewing Ken for this series was to make his work (and the unique lens of Integral Theory) as accessible as possible to a wide audience. Because my intention on this site is to interview a diverse set of speakers, attracting all kinds of different people, I wanted to ask Ken his general opinion on the state of things in a way that can relate to audiences outside of the Integral community.

    Ken and I discussed this…and we did not want to use any spiral dynamics lingo or anything else that might inhibit accessibility. I understand there are a lot of ‘Integral minded’ people on this list at the moment (especially because Integral Life was so gracious to blast their list), and I hope you understand the context was to broadly frame out how this ‘movement’ is part of an evolutionary pattern that has gone on, and will continue to go on, in perpetuity.

    So again I apologize if this particular talk did not juice you up as cutting Ken Wilber Integral dialogue! But I think this is the type of conversation that many people who love Integral Theory and Ken Wilber can send to friends almost as an introduction to one of the most powerful naming and framing technologies on the planet!

    Be well,

  • Bobby

    How so?

  • Bobbi jo lathan

    There’s a very good book by Dr. Max Kappeler entitled “The Spiritual Breakthrough to The New Millennium” in which he describes what’s going on now as a new Consciousness. He also speaks of Gebser’s work and shows our spiritual evolution thru these different levels of Consciousness. And, that we are now in a new form of Consciousness in which the Idea of who we are and the symbol of who we are is merging. Amazing book. (And,by the way, his work has NOTHING to do with the CS church organization.) He also speaks of structures teetering on collapse. I think Ken would find Kappeler’s work of great interest.
    Bobbi Jo Lathan

  • Bruce Elkin

    Great talk. Very clear, comprehensive and motivating. Thanks Ken and Todd!

  • Lyonsjoan

    Fantastic… Integral Transformative Practice… Sign me up :)

  • Kriste B

    The book is Integral Life Practice

  • david

    Thanks for your Reply Todd!

    Get me right, I like Ken, however, I don’t agree with all that he’s saying, for instance when he talks about carbon footprint and mainstream hogwash I honestly get irritated and call bullshit.

    I’d like to hear these personal growth folks talk about: chemtrails, over-illumination by 2012 standard fluorescent lighting, water fluoridation, main stream media mind control, the matrix, and all of the manipulation being put in place by the elites to take us into the new unity-era. I can’t wait to get chipped and being plugged into the hive mind.

    People in general are just too damn stupid to see any of this stuff going on, or if they see it they don’t want to talk about it, cause the rest could see them as some far off tangent weirdos.

    I understand Bill Harris is part of this series too (by the way: I love his program). He’s been talking about declining social mood since late 2009 on his blog. He’s into the whole Eliott Wave theory and what not. He very strongly disagrees that society is the result of manipulation, but rather that in times of declining social mood the elites try to control things…when most obviously what he’s saying here is bullshit.

    I had this numerology dude tell me about all this stuff 20 years ago…and get me right, I’m not one of those new age woo woo believers…but I will tell you this: the guy said: after democracy there will be chaos, and he spoke endlessly about 2012, I was a kid, and didn’t understand anything of what he was talking about…but each and every thing that he’d ever told me came to pass (even very detailed stuff about my own life).

    I’m just saying that the elites and their global cabal know very well what they’re doing…call me a conspiracy theorist or what not, but the new world order plays with this whole oneness thing, and they truly think that they can pull it off and have their one world government…just you wait and see what else will happen in the coming years…I’m not afraid for myself, but I don’t like it, and I’m telling you: it’s not good.

    I just don’t buy into all this new age crap, where they say: it’s all going to be just fine. Well if it’s going to be fine, why not start with the air we breathe? I want these tankers gone and my blue sky back. This is some of the shit I’m talking about. And I don’t give a damn about what anyone says, but this is the truth of what’s going down.

    And please, don’t take any offense in anything I am saying here, cause as far as I’m concerned you’re a really nice guy that is just trying to help.

    Cheers, David

  • Todd Goldfarb

    haha this is GREAT David, and I totally get it. You should listen to the first interview I did with Derrick Ashong….he said exactly what you are saying.

    Also, you should tune in here on 11/11….I am doing an exclusive interview with Foster Gamble who (with his wife Kimberly) created the THRIVE movie which will be released that day.

    From what you are saying you will dig this. Check out that website at

    I am trying to get ALL kinds of perspectives in Tipping….the spiritual, the activist, and all the rest…

    Thanks man,

  • Kriste B

    So glad you were able to get Ken’s contribution to this conversation of the Worldwide Tipping Point, and why this shift differs from the last 5. It’s extremely important to get that integral message out: the oneness, the recognition and acceptance of all as relevant…therefore, opens the possibilities of the future to it’s fullest potential once we free ourselves of dualism. It also frees the individual to drop whatever stories have been keeping them from their individual greatness. Our differences are our collective strength, dynamic pieces of the ultimate quantum puzzle. As Ken said, you can start with studying certain practices, but ultimately you will be your own guide.

    As for what the future holds? That’s the great mystery, and you can choose to let the “bad” possibilities hold you back (most of us are just currently conditioned to fixate on the bad), or you can choose to seek the good, true and beautiful with the determination to co-create a better future, as there are endless possibilities. Why else live?

  • Ron

    Thanks for holding the interview. I think these discussions you are hosting are important. Ken’s work is great and extensive. I would appreciate it if you would be a little more patient and let the speaker finish their complete responce to your question. Perhaps you and your guest could discuss, before the recording, a process where the guest focuses on a more narrow response to your question instead of going on and on about their work. It seems to me that your time restraints certainly demand a more focused discussion – this or that aspect of their work.

  • david

    Thanks Todd,

    I’m not even saying that I have all the answers, far from it.

    But I’m certainly not buying into this new age crapola of “the world’s waking up”, truth be told: there are more zombies than anything out there.

    I don’t know what will happen exactly, but what I can tell you with absolute certainty is that we’ll see a lot of suffering, death and destruction in the near future, and that on a massive scale (on this I agree with Bill Harris).

    People think that ignorance is bliss, how stupid an assumption.

    Peace Mate, David

  • Amy

    What a wonderful presentation. I could have listened for many more hours. I have a sense of calm in hearing about this inevitable transformation.

  • John

    I agree with some of what David has to say. There are many “zombies” out there and they outnumber us unfortunately. I signed up because I do have an eerie “feeling” about “something” that is, to date, unexplained. I see turmoil, uneasiness, dissatisfaction in many peoples lives to a level that I’ve not experienced in the 5+ decades of my existence. I chalked it up to a bad economy, dishonest leadership and a shift in social morays. But my sense is that this is something else, something outside of what we would consider common. I am seeking clarity. But not finding it.

  • david

    Derrick is saying some interesting things, however, he’s working for main stream media, so what does that tell you? He’s not really in a position to stand up and say how it really is. Plus, the protests that are going on worldwide: all is going according to plan, it’s not that these things are just randomly happening, there is a power structure that has manipulated these reactions to come out. It’s really naive to think that once a Mubarak is gone that the solution will be brought in…again, all is going according to plan: if you want to move towards global governance, you’ll need to eradicate what seemed to be a problem.

    No, my friend, the globalist agenda (but to use their own words we’ll call it the new world order) is moving forward with full steam, and there’s no question that they’re having their way, even now that all these people seen to be thinking that things are changing, and that the world is getting better. It may have the appearance of getting better, but this is actually not what’s happening.

    And so no, I’m really sorry, but I’ll have to call Bull both on Derrick as well as on the thrive movement.

    Kick back and keep watching as things will unfold my friend!

    Cheers, David

  • Linda

    Hi there, I agree with you too David. I used to read Ken Wilber years ago, but went off him – I know not why. Too wordy (to put it simply)… (By the way, great job Todd, this is important work you are doing). I am less concerned with past cycles, than what is going on right now. As an evolutionary astrologer, I am well aware that life moves us forward in cyclic/spiralic motion. We have the squares of Pluto/Uranus (ie massive social shake up, liberation, transformation) already begun, but building over the next couple of years. I believe in the conspiracy – because it is alive and well – and we should all be deeply outraged, at what these elitist controllers are doing right now. I have a 25 year old son who understands the evolutionary process, the conspiracy, all of it – he tells me to stop worrying – that it is all part where we need to be. He summed it up well recently: ‘Mum, stop worrying and talking about it – if people haven’t even got the truth of 9/11 yet – then there’s no hope they’re going to get it! Don’t waste your energy.” Okay, well, how about people like Ken Wilber – those who do have a voice out there, start talking about truth NOW, what is happening NOW – chemtrails, emf toxicity, the poisoning of our air, food, water, the manipulated financial collapse – designed to cripple and enslave us….etc. etc. etc. And of course, in all of this – the momentous movement toward an expansive consciousness (Neptune is moving into Pisces for many years to come – symbolising CONNECTION, a coming together in awareness of our ONENESS. We will do this, as we all wake up (which we are doing) to the forces (evil actually) trying to control us – and COME TOGETHER. Ultimately, good, love WILL prevail. I think we just have a rather bumpy ride ahead of us – as the re-birth process intensifies. The most important thing we can do is work on heightening our own vibratory frequency. We do this best by detaching from the bs, the controlled media, the propaganda, the fear-mongering etc. and releasing our own patterns of (conditioned) fear, purifying our body/minds (we need to take responsibility for our own health)…AND at the same time, being mindful, caring, about what is going on. Our compassion, our service is needed – but we cannot be of service others until we take care of ourselves first. SO – to lift our own vibrations (my next book will be on this subject), stay informed of what is going on in the world – WITHOUT letting ourselves become sucked into the pain of it, BE OUTRAGED enough to take the steps we need to do to get out of this controlled shite. Yes, Ken, we know it has to be worldwide global changes – and the only way we will make the changes we need is to start one cell at a time. We are EACH – one cell in the body of humanity. Thanks for listening.

  • Energyvet

    Thank you Ken Wilber. I have felt very confused and disheartened by life lately. Now I understand the view from the window on the train to the future. If only more people would listen… We need to get to Tipping Point, that magic 10%, sooner. Obama is in place, the time is ripe. I’ve added my intention and energy!

  • Energyvet

    Integral Life Practice.
    Integral transformative practice
    The Spiritual Breakthrough to the new millennium

    Hope this helps you find more on the subject. :-) . Namaste

  • Energyvet

    Well said Todd. It did just that for me. This is new information and I got peace from knowing. You can’t walk away from the truth once you hear it.

  • Grannymaui

    Really enjoyed Ken Wilbers thoughts on Tipping Point, but was disappointed when he got into Multiple Intelligence, emotional, musical, ethical, mathematical etc, he neglected to mention Spiritual Intelligence or Wisdom. Does it not play a part in the Integral Tipping Point? And if so, would it not speed up the 10% to bring in the Integral transition.

  • Whitney Relf

    Looking forward, with great anticipation, to the tipping point!of the 6th great transformation!

  • Sadhanamoon

    Hi. Did I miss it somewhere…I was looking for the percentage of where we are right now into the 6th shift…did we find out??? thanks!

  • Lee Offenhauer

    David, with all due respect, people who are as sure of themselves as you seem to be are usually, in my experience, only seeing what they want to see. I submit to you that there’s a VAST bit of this picture that you’re not even aware of. You see your conspiracies, you see all the bad guys, and you imagine a face to them that you can call “bad” and label “them” as the problem. (This, by the way, is exactly what Wilber is talking about when he says that each level in the past has seen it’s own worldview as the only right one.) But I don’t get that you sense the spirit that’s driving this. You should start looking for positive things as well. They may not be as splashy as all the awful things going on, but they are ultimately more important because they are a harbinger of where it’s actually headed.
    Peace to you all, Lee

  • Sal

    This was a great interview and the comments were just as great. I have heard of Ken Wilber but did not know of his work and research. History is a great learning tool in understanding the evolution of mankind and our connection in this universe. As Ken said there have been big movements in the past and too me, it is clear to see each movement took place at its precise timing before the next one happened. Perhaps we are in the era of Conscious evolution. As this evolution continues, we will understand that the essence of most religions is being that of the same. Or simply put – just wanting to be good and feel good from the heart. When more of us can function from this place it would not matter what race, class or religion we are. Then we can embrace more of diversity and help each other in solving the problems of poverty and pollution. Certainly, technology (including the internet) has propelled us into globilization. Just as we came to accept democracy over aristocracy, it may take some of us a while to accept globalization. To me globalization does not mean having one government over the entire whole. That makes no sense at all. However, it does mean we will be working with our neighbors from different countries for the collective economic good of the whole world. And not just economically, but also improve the health of life on the Earth.

  • david

    Lee, I’m not saying that’s all I see…I just bringing up things that in personal growth circles are shrugged under the rug.

  • Ruby Odell

    This was good, very good!

  • david

    Thanks for your thoughts Linda.

  • Jo Pape

    Well David – this old-timer felt that Todd did a fabulous job on this interview and the first one as well. Ken can be like a runaway train when he gets going on a subject, and that Todd was able to keep him on point – the TIPPING point – and get this clearly addressed in the time available, truly impressed me. I think there are not many, including those a whole lot older, who could have stayed as grounded and clear as Todd did – and I have nothing but admiration and support, both for Todd’s exciting originality and his positive efforts toward making a real contribution in the world.


  • Judith

    describing these world views/phases as “levels” could support a good or better mindset–which doesnt support acceptance of the other “levels”…these phases are to be found in each individuals life–when we discover and intergrate the life serving values therein, we don´t/won´t need to “pyramidze” our development or the development of others

  • jonT

    From Spiral Dynamics sources i seem to remember we were getting towards five percent in the western world a few years ago. That will have gone up but by how much I don’t know. And, it will be higher in pockets where people gather together. Also worth noting that the first level with an integral world view is an individualistic one where people make a difference in the world but don’t neccesarily gather together. For me, the real tipping poing is when the next level which is a more communal one emerges in numbers to coordinate the others. At the moment the percentage of that level is very low, probably less than two percent and that could be very optimistic.

  • Adriana

    Hi there,
    When I write this I don`t listen it what u(Ken)say it but I must tell u coos I see it u in a vision in a store…in front of me,6 month ago…

  • Kevywalton

    Interesting, but somewhat naive! ken couldn’t sell the Elite point of view if they paid him.. oh wait..sounds to me like they have LOL…. Terrorist NUKE! It takes a State to create a Nuke, and the only ones Terrorising the World is US/Israel/UK – Anglo-American-Israelites and if that can not be looked at and accepted FIRST, instead of buying the random terrorist who threatens the World nonsense, we can move forward

  • Kathy Edwards

    Having listened to Wilber’s talk above, read all the blog posts, and I am awake way earlier than usual, I want add my two cents worth to this very important process. What I am interested in, is how Ken’s Integral approach is being translated on the ground in our lives in transformative ways. It seems to me that one of the skills we need to diligently work on is how to energetically hold intense polarization while we transcend and include. I would like to hear what people are including and what they are eliminating in their own lives. I am working on eliminating moral ambiguity. To do this I am relying on my compassionate enneagram 2ness’s heart felt empathy. Though I feel a strong pull toward rigidity as I try to put my moral meme code ducks in a row, I am also striving to remain flexible. One of my favorite quotes from my hands down all time favorite book, “Its not either or, its and, and both.” Excuse me if I did not get the punctuation right on that, as I have given my copy of Grace & Grit to a friend.

    Todd, your World Tipping Point counter is one of the best ideas for translating Integral into something very practical. It is on my website twice. I am hosting an ecologically themed arts competition in six distinct creative categories, its called Eco Arts Awards. I had someone call me from China last week, and we are getting emails from Serbia, Kosavo, and Russia! Life is quite exciting as we teeter towards the Tipping Point!

  • from the trenches

    Thank you Ken and Todd. Are you sure you want to open this up to the “Blogosphere?” Look how quickly swords cross, (a good example, by the way of our human tendency to “marginalize and oppress”).

    Todd, I bet you’ll tire pretty quickly of this “10%” obsession. I’ll do my best. You’ll do your best. The evolution of Consciousness goes on. Earth may not. No worrys. Love to you all.

  • Bruce Gardiner

    Had Ken listed all the multiple intelligences Spritiual Intelligence or Intrapersonal intelligence would have been on the list. I point of fact Spiritual Intelligence is own deepest area of study and practice.

  • Ciampi Helen88

    This was so enlightening. Thank you so much for doing this.

  • Lin

    Is there a place to access the transcipts as I do NOT have high speed nor Mp3 capabilities..thank you.

  • Debborah

    I am overwhelmed with gratitude for the emergence of this knowledge reaching the masses! My whole life I have known this place, earth, was a bit off off it’s potential.
    With this attitude and outlook we will reach where I have deeply known mans capacities as a loving, compassionate, collaborative, productive and harmonious race unified and working together for the common good of the planet and her stewards.
    Grace and Gratitude

  • Chjeanes

    Please, Tipping Point leaders, lose the commercial radio voices to start this …. the bass boost and the clips, all that b s used in Hollywood movie traulers. Grow up. How is this consciousness, to sound like you’re just another product for sale and consumption.
    note to Ken: whenever I hear about the progress of human consciousness at the leading edge, the leading edge is always the person doing the talking. The spiral dynamics types, etc., are so obviously beyond other people. If you are not in America’s consciousness elite, the supereducated, supremely healthy, aware of all human history and all cultural movements and religious and spiritual paths in past and in future, you are not on the leading edge. Gee. Is there some ego involved?
    charles in Nelson, BC

  • Matt Holbert


    What to do? Over the past few years, I have attempted to come up with a plan that is integral and grounded in reality. The reality is that we will have to live differently if we are to thrive in the future. One stumbling block is the fact that some integralists and many post-moderns have — or at least, think they have — a material, vested interest in the status quo. I recently prepared a poster for a Permaculture Conference this weekend in Spokane that attempts to address this. ( See ) The university/monastery portion of the equation on the left may appeal to integralists and I believe that the finance portion on the right may appeal to those moderns and post-moderns who are concerned with their retirement accounts.

    I’d be interested in any questions or comments from tipping point participants. Also, are you planning to interview any of those who are thinking about “What to do?” from an applications standpoint?


  • Jennifer Grove

    Hi, Ron.
    I am glad you noticed this. If you are familiar with Ken and have been current with what’s going on with him you would know that what the interviewer did here was skillful and correct. It feels jolting to us, I agree. But it has been difficult for Ken to stay focused in interviews lately and he has ended up simply repeating old scripts in a somewhat mechanical way. I have seen/heard other interviewers try and create an agreement with him before the conversation starts to fast forward thru the review and get to the current edge, but he has not been able to keep that. He is very ill. And while he still has so much to give and is freakin’ brilliant, the window of necessary clarity may not always co-inside with a scheduled slot to speak. I think they both did a really good job here. Frankly I’m just really relieved to see that KW is no longer pathologizing what is arising now, but is accepting it as truly Integral. <3

  • Jennifer Grove

    Hi, Kathy.
    Good question. I think this is the biggest question hanging in the air right now,

    “…how to energetically hold intense polarization while we transcend and include. I would like to hear what people are including and what they are eliminating in their own lives.”

    I have been involved in Integral for years now and have seen the community split into the most hostile fractions imaginable. Why? Because we cannot agree on what is real – let alone what is best. Conversations have no starting place now. And without the conversation we cannot come into resonance and find shared meaning and value. Without shared meaning and value, we cannot make decisions and take action AS Integral Thinkers. I think there is one major reason for this. But I’ll leave that alone for now.

    Looking at “what is”, I would make a prudent and disappointed suggestion that we hold the IDEA of universal value and contribution in our awareness while we divide ourselves into work groups with attention and intention so as not to slice into each other’s work and character. I cannot agree with what some “Integral Thinkers” believe to be real, therefore I will not work with them on their projects. But I deserve to have the opportunity to work. So, I will group myself with other “Integral Thinkers” who agree with me about what is real, and endeavor to create something that can transition and compliment the work of others, while remaining distinct.

  • Jennifer Grove

    Hi, jonT.
    I agree. I think they are deeply connected, tho distinct, and so should take place separately.

  • Jennifer Grove

    Hi, Matt.
    I am interested in this. I do want to suggest you reconsider listening to bankers. While it may sound like Bill is advising you for your best interest, you can bet (because he already is) that if/when you acquire the return OF your investment – he will make a pretty penny on that. These people make money whether you win or lose. Having your ear only increases their take. Please consider this.

    I’m not very savvy on financial lingo so I may be missing some of your meaning, but are you saying that these communities are set up for folks who produce more than they consume – ideally? Is that the general thrust?

    I generally object to the term “capital” as it can be and usually is confused with money. I use the term “value”. If these terms are equal in meaning in your mind, let me know and I’ll try to just translate in my head. I am looking to experiment in community that does not need money, except for things which cannot be easily traded any other way. There are many kinds of value which can be traded. Check this guy out:

    He spoke in New York sometime after Charles Eisenstein at OWS. I love this talk.

    At any rate, I have much value to offer, but it doesn’t look like the kind of stuff that is traded for money in the traditional way. And like Art is saying, we suck at trading these kinds of values. I want to get better at it.

  • Jennifer Grove
  • Jennifer Grove

    Hi, Judith.
    I know it may sound that way, but that’s not what is actually happening. Attempts have been made to sterilize this of the idea of higher/lower and there have been disastrous results which are far worse than what you’re describing here. I’ve seen it and heard it and deal with it every day.

    If you see someone denying the right of others to exist based on Developmental level, rest assured that they are ACTUALLY at a lower developmental level than Integral. Integral doesn’t do that. Integral may tell someone to leave a designated space because they are being disruptive to others, but they are clear that they deserve to exist and live the way they want to live. Folks at opportunistic and conformist level ways of being should not be allowed to invade the space of others and destroy the community. This has been a big problem for a long time.

    The “Hierarchy” which Ken and others describe here is not about better and worse. That mindset exists lower on the developmental line. The whole point of Integral is that it finally sees that even tho stages are higher and lower developmentally, they are equally deserving of dignity and honor. If you really can’t feel this, then I suggest you wait 5 years or so. You’ll see.

  • Jennifer Grove

    Hi, Energyvet.
    It’s here already. But it won’t be televised. Check your local live stream.

  • Dolydave555

    Cant seem to download with mac – right click does not offer download option. Taa for any help as I am keen to listen.

  • Karen Roberts

    A community that does not need money simply trades in energy , I believe this will happen in the very near future. Mark my words because I am a psychic. It comes with the understanding that crude oil made our economy boon. But energy can, in all forms, make money including human energy. People because of republicans are being made to not feel important or unequal. They will regret this, for they cannot win with this attitude. I am helping, although most can not see the things I do. My influence is great, for I am a very strong psychic. But they, the Republican, are fighting me and calling me a demon. Me, I call them soulless, and without compassion.

  • Karen Roberts

    The mind can know things beyond the scope of normal understanding. Read, but be aware, that the establishment is constantly embellishing or changing history. Even our facts about the earth, is ever evolving and if you do not know that, you know nothing.

  • Karen Roberts

    Are you one of the Walton’s of Walmart. If so who cares what you think. You are a self serving person.

  • Karen Roberts

    Me too, in bed, but it was a night before going to sleep.

  • Rocky&Bullwinkle

    Listen to Ken Wilber here! I own several of his books & thinks he’s awesome!

  • Jandjgauthier

    Ken is a genius comparable to the Buddhas of the world; He is a gift from the Beloved, and every human being should be aware of his mission on our planet right here and right now-

  • Pbabcock46

    A woman to interview is Patricia Alberre who has her own online radio program.

  • Sal

    Hi Karen, I would like to find out more about your work, do you have a blog site?
    To the rest of the readers, your comments are greatly appreciated. It is truly wonderful that we can express our contrasting views peacefully and respectfully. I got the impresson that Ken’s talk attracted people from different backgrounds, not just academic scholars, historians, integratists, ‘America’s elites’ but people like me, a mother with a young child and a part time job, trying to make ends meet.
    Does anyone agree with me, the way in which this evolving consciousness will change the world will be completely different from the past?
    Ken referred to capitalism and Karen referred to republican and money. Will any of these related components collapse or change to something new to have balance and not inequality?

  • Duncan II

    Thank you for this conversation. It helps me understand one of great challenges I have had while approaching the world from an integral perspective: everyone else (95%) thinks that paradigms are mutually exclusive.
    It seems that most people are either defensively ready to defend their view from the presumed invasion of a new perspective, or when you try to explain how the worldviews can/must coexist they reject the idea of accepting the value within their historical paradigmatic enemies.
    Have other people run into this challenge?
    When accepting various worldview must we also accept their non-acceptance of eachother’s world views?

  • david

    This is someone (not me) commenting on your initiative on Bill Harris’ blog and Bill’s answer:

    Re: Tipping Point project

    I listened to KW’s interview. I don’t know if you listened to it yet. I’m assuming not. It was a combination of a recap of his stages of development with something I hadn’t heard before.

    He said once a civilization has 10% of it’s population reach a higher stage, the entire civilization moves up one stage as its new center of gravity. He used the founding fathers as an example who were a full developmental stage ahead of the populace when they wrote the Dec of Independence which was nevertheless accepted by the populace. He believes that at some point over the next 10 years in the US, 10% of the populace with be at the integral stage and another stage shift will occur. He said the last time this happened was the “60s revolution” which actually occurred in the 70s.

    I found his theory of 10% being the tipping point as interesting and also that the next shift would occur in the US within 10 years. Any thoughts about this?

    FROM BILL: Ken has been saying this for some time. I think he’s missing a few pieces of the puzzle, however. Certainly over the centuries the number of people at a certain developmental level changes, and when enough people reach a certain stage, the “center of gravity” (I guess that means the preponderence of those who are ruling the society and setting/influencing it’s mores, memes, and rules) does change to a “higher” level. A higher level means, in general, a broader, more inclusive perspective. However, there can be problems (which Ken has acknowleged before, but perhaps isn’t acknowledging now–I didn’t hear the interview).

    There is no evidence I know of that a certain percentage defines when that will happen, that there is any actually data about such a number, or how anyone would even know what number of people are at a certain developmental level. His 10% is a wild, though partially educated, guess. You can to some degree see which developmental level the political leaders, educational/academic establishment, artistic community, and news media are at (in general), because what they do or say is more visible. These are, for Wilber, those who constitute the “center of gravity.” However, there is no way I know of to actually put a number on it, nor is there any evidence that a certain number constitutes a tipping point (and, as I think about it, if I was going to speculate about such a number, I would think that it would be a Fibonnaci number percentage, which would rule out 10%).

    Though I think the whole subject of developmental levels is very important and very helpful in looking at individuals and at society as a whole, in my opinion there is much more going on here, which is one reason why I have written about social mood in my last several posts. Rising and falling waves of positive and negative social mood are not being taken into account in this “tipping point” business. (I might add that I was ask to–and did–speak to the United Nations Values Caucus about such developmental levels in 2003, so I know a bit about it.)

    So here’s something I don’t think Wilber is aware of–something I think is quite important: These different developmental levels act/express in certain ways in times of positive social mood, and in other ways in times of negative social mood. What people like Wilber look for as a tipping point may very well be a tipping point into something quite dark. Whether we’re looking at “healthy” vs “unhealthy” expressions of each developmental level (something Wilber and other developmental theorists have discussed at length) are equally as important as WHAT developmental level.

    A broader and more inclusive perspective is a good thing, but the unhealthy version of a given developmental level is often unhealthy because it has disowned certain parts of its new perspective, aspects that were a useful and healthy part of the previous developmental level (an simple example of this is the 60s youth revolution disowning rules, law and order, etc–and, by golly, aren’t we seeing that in the OWS people today? Hmmm.).

    So, let’s look for a moment at the Occupy Wall Street people. They are not “more inclusive” despite their talk of being the “99%”. They are doing what people do in times of negative social mood–finding someone to demonize. Then, demogogues race to the head of the parade (in this case, socialist, anarchists, communists, etc.) and say, “Yes, there is an enemy, and we must crush him. Follow us to freedom!” Look at the freedom the German people experienced when this happened to them in the 1930s. Or the Russian people after 1917. Or the Cuban people after 1959. Or the Chinese..or the Venezuelans..or the North Koreans…or…

    Lenin (it is alleged) called such people “useful idiots” because they were young, inexperienced, naive, willing to be vocal and violent and take risks, and were easily led and manipulated. Then, the demogogues use the situation to gain (they hope) power.

    I am not saying that the OWS people don’t have a point in that there HAS been a collusion between Big Government and multinational corporations and banks. However, their interpretation of how and why that came about, and what to do about it, is incredibly naive–in fact, almost infantile. These people do not have an understanding of history, or how the financial system works, what role Wall Street plays in their ability to live the lifestyle they are accustomed to, nor do they know anything about social mood, or about most other bits of relevant information and wisdon. And look at how socially retarded these people are–rapes, crime, filth, no reverence in practice for the Gaia they tend to revere, etc.

    And, if what these people say they want actually came about (and it might, unfortunately) it would change our society in a way that would send us into a dark age that will last for many decades, if not longer. Some tipping point.

    In its unhealthy form, even a “higher” developmental level can–and historically has–done horrible things to those they demonize. This is not a tipping point I’m looking forward to.

  • Todd Goldfarb

    Great stuff David, as always thank you for sharing!

  • david

    I can of course not predict what will happen with 100% certainty. But what I can tell you is that it’s very likely going to be tough times in the years to come, very tough times.

    I think that a lot of people are being led astray, big time, by all this new age woo woo. Let’s be clear: expansion of awareness and a conscious society that goes with that, will not happen as if by magic.

    I, as I’ve said, am working on myself ACTIVELY, I do meditate with HS several hours every day, that’s what allows me to develop myself…how many people are doing such practices? You’re doing it Todd, and other people are doing it as well, but it’s a very small percentage of the world’s population…the rest just sit in front of their TV set while sipping their beer and having the centrally controlled media upload them with some useless, and often times dangerous content.

    But hey, again, I like your initiative here, and I’m not just out to criticize mindlessly, I hope I’m also adding value to the discussion.

    I mean okay, I understand that some people that commented here are totally enthusiastic about some of the interviews, nothing wrong about that…but I think that we need to look at things a bit more critically as well as realistically…just look around in the world, at all the conflicts going on: no signs of higher consciousness there.

    Anyway, I look forward to hearing more, and maybe one of these people will say something more than just likeable.

  • Irina Pavlova

    Todd, thank you so much for your work! I don’t think you comprehend fully yet how important it is what you are doing :)
    Keep at it!
    Thank you, thank you, thank you!

  • Verainnovations

    I’ve been involved in a movement that’s been alternately called relocalization, transition, resilience and thriving – whatever the name, it’s both a practical and spiritual response to what many agree are hard times ahead as the climate changes and energy resources are taxed, etc. So I was disturbed when ken described the stages by how people provisioned themselves (food) until post modern which he characterized as “vitual/internet.” we do not eat bits and bytes (at least computer ones). Part of the delusion afforded us by industrial, corporate ag is thinking food comes from some Starship Enterprise replicator called the store. How does integral address a post peak oil transition from industrial to sustainable – at a pace that matches the breakdowns? in cuba everyone lost at least 20 pounds and struggled to produce enough to feed the people. how does integral consciousness help with this?

  • Fubar

    She is at a level where she doesn’t believe in levels.

  • Fubar

    Hey david, thanks for expressing skepticism about green meme problems. basic question from a non-expert: why isn’t Gebser’s “paradigm regression” relevant to “negative social mood”?

  • Fubar

    re: “teeter towards the Tipping Point”

    Or, twitter toward the tipping point, as the case may be.

  • Fubar

    Citrus juice w/ extra pulp?


    I’m not an expert, but have been on the periphery of integralism for ~10 years – so please correct me if wrong:

    I read that there was a controversy at 2011 Integral Theory conference about LOHAS corrupting integralism (Visser vs. Wilber). And I have seen some commentary indicating that some are upset that the integral movement’s leadership received money from a big silicon valley capitalist.

    Seems like a basic lack of transparency, which is typical of dysfunctional organizational culture, and “corporatist/business” memes (Citrus-Actinidia). Bernie Neville of wrote some (IMO) awesome stuff for Gebser Society on this a while ago:


    Q: why isn’t the work on intentional community by people like M. Scott Peck relevant? Sure it is not glowing neon “integral”, but its “partial” (postmodern) truths would still seem to be a worthy model of activist and “socially justice” oriented integral community?

    Note: I was a (nonconfoming) member of the bahai community for several decades, and saw similar, lots of people talking about “world peace” type stuff, while allowing very dysfunctional organizational leadership dynamics and super dark fundie memes (Vaccinium).
    “In the twenty-five years since its inception, FCE has actively built community between people from conflicting ethnic groups, religions and political beliefs in numerous national and international locations. From South Africa to Bosnia and beyond, FCE’s Community Building workshops and Community Facilitation programs have helped individuals around the globe to experience learning and living the principles of community. Today, FCE continues to guide the world toward more effective communication and the possibility of peace.”
    Stages of Community Building

    - Pseudocommunity
    - Chaos
    - Emptiness
    - Community

    Community can be defined best in the following manner:

    A group of people, who, despite the diversity of their previous history, have been able to accept and transcend their differences, thus enabling them to communicate effectively and openly and to cooperate in working toward a recognizable goal or for the common good of the group

    This level of development of the group–the state of community–requires authentic opening and connecting of the heart. It flows, equally, from an awareness and understanding of the self and of relations with others, particularly with the other participants in the workshop.

    The aim of this experience is:
    ▪ To increase competence in relations between individuals and groups
    ▪ To grow in self-awareness
    ▪ To develop one’s capacity for personal choices with a view to serve a relation or a group

    In order that this may happen, it is essential that participants come to the workshop with a firm intention of recognizing one’s own truth.

    If you are in therapy at present, participation should be discussed with your therapist as the experience may be demanding.

    The participants learn to recognize key attitudes and techniques as well recognizing their own personal barriers to effective communication, and thus become aware of the characteristics of genuine community.

  • Fubar

    oops, here is the excerpt from Neville:

    “From the point of view of the rational-scientific culture that has
    been dominant for a few hundred years, magical and mythical thinking are
    primitive and inferior forms of thinking that have limited value in the
    contemporary world. However, we can argue that it is our capacity for
    mythical, and even magical, thinking that enables us to [*]find meaning[*]
    in our lives and gives us a [*]grounding[*] in the concrete world that rational thinking seems bent on destroying.”

    “rational” in this case being “mean citrus meme”, absolutist-exclusivist science, technology, capitalism, etc. (?)

  • catriceykara

    I am not a fan of this interview. The others are much better. goodbye.

  • Michael

    An interesting interview. Ken Wilbur is certainly very bright and articulate, and it all sounds touchy-feely good, but my response is that the integral mind is coming along too late in the game. We’ve spent the future’s inheritance, and far too many of the seven-plus billion people on this planet are too locked in unintegrated paradigms to make any kind of meaningful turn. I’ll be glad to be wrong, but at this writing, I sure wouldn’t want to be reborn into what I see coming around the bend.

  • Michael

    Wikipedia: Hundredth Monkey Effect

  • Fubar

    Hey Michael, the industrial-capitalist world’s inheritance was built on a foundation of theft of indigenous land and natural resources over the last 500 years. And for 8,000 years prior to that, various empires engaged in conquest. Before that, tribes vanquished other tribes, etc.

    Assuming that Holistic-Integral paradigms are “better”, then they should confer some adaptive social benefit even in times of decline. Indeed, they may be the only hope that the decline may be reversible. If we are going into a period of global totalitarianism, or Plutocracy/Kleptocracy, the “revolution” needs a theme of a better future.

    Integralists are generally people that are from counterculture background. They already rejected, in some form or another, the dominant paradigms of the establishment and the failed liberal/progressive/postmodern “alternatives”.

    The question is: can Integralists “deliver”, at this point?

    If you look around in the comments for Jennifer Grove’s statements, you will see links to IMPORTANT information on the FAILURE of the current Integral movement’s leadership. There are the usual Zen-guru sex scandals. There are absurd failures because Wilber and his business partners have failed to “democratize” their organizational cultures. They have fallen into some predictable dysfunctional “corporate” patterns: lack of transparency, lack of accountability, etc.

    As a result, there is a movement within Integralism to be open to critics, for instance at the annual Integral Theory Conference.

    Besides criticisms of Wilber “guru” worship, and “orange meme” corporate pollution of the Integral movement (LOHAS), there are deeper philosophical questions about “bad science”. The use (or abuse) of the term “evolutionary spirituality” in particular has been identified by Wilber critic Frank Visser as a very weak point in current Integral “marketing”.

    What evolutionary theory tells us is that human beings are driven to be tribal and also driven to seek transcendence (via ritualized social bonding). These are horrible contradictions, and limited by DNA.

    I look forward to your feedback.

  • Michael


    No easy solutions to this fine mess, for all the reasons you allude to, that’s for sure.

    Below is a link to my thoughts on things. Wrote it about fifteen or so years ago, and it still pretty much applies. Lots of additional stuff posted here and there, as well.

    Let me know what you think.

    Ciao, ciao,



    The Stillness Before Time

    Free PDF Copy



    Michael’s Little Warehouse of All Things Amusing, Absurd & Profound

  • Joel Fairstein

    A clear, enlightening presentation. I value and thank Ken for his historical perspective, but have some issues with the forward-looking parts of the interview.

    Ken uses the word “emergence” multiple times in reference to the progression of levels in world history. I’ve gleaned from that field the essential unpredictability of newly emerged states; you can understand the causes after the fact, but not before. For that reason, I don’t accept the next level as something currently intelligible, but something that just happens.

    It appears to me the American Bill Of Rights is as close to the integral ideal as we can expect, but that document was never truly adopted as stated in Ken’s interview. The so-called 5th level, to my understanding (and which I would fall into) consists of people who do accept the Bill Of Rights unconditionally. In other words, tolerance of others, which also sounds a lot like a 6th, integral level.

    One other point is an unspoken position in integral and New Age discussions: what I would term the destruction of Shiva (the destroyer). All new movements require a certain amount of pruning and destruction (not necessarily violent), so how does a coming integral stage square with that and simultaneously move beyond the close-minded precursor stages?

    Without Shiva and dissent, a top-down “level” would be led by uber-cool, enlightened folks who are sustained by an audience of eager children/devotees. Maybe that’s not so bad though, having ultra-slick TED-like philosopher kings.

    I propose that this integral state could emerge not as a way of life in the world, but as a continuous state of dialog much as we’re having here. So, thank you Tipping Point for hosting it!

  • David Watermeyer

    I know this was written ages ago but I resonate so strongly with it that I would love to make contact. If so please email me davidnwatermeyer at yahoo dot co dot uk . Would love to discuss..

  • Anonymous

    Wilber’s AQAL indeed proposes an approach to the future that is important and balanced. It is something of the cognitive spearhead of the various “cultural creatives” and “evolutionaries” out there. As such, it deserves both support and attention to areas that need improvement. These include a transition from the elitism and exceptionalism to “2nd Tier” developmental status to humility; a shift from emphasis on consciousness and cognitive framing in the interior quadrants to social altruism; movement from a self-centered world view to a multi-perspectival sense of self, and greater clarity regarding language. I discuss the why and how of all three of these in Healing Integral, which deals not just with Integral, but personal development in general.